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Post by leeknight on Nov 9, 2012 22:10:34 GMT -5
Lee, I haven't had a chance to update the prosody issues we talked about. I've been on a roll with the arrangement, tracking, etc... lots of input used however. Plus lots of my ideas that were there in my head from the start realized to one degree or another.
So, here's where we're at right now...
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Post by rsadasiv on Nov 9, 2012 23:09:06 GMT -5
Good God, you are a fucking magician. Worthy of Harry Nilsson.
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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 10, 2012 0:01:49 GMT -5
I agree - the boy is brilliant. It works really well.
My only observation is that the backing vocals are a bit muddled and tentative. I think that they need better integration in the mix.
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Post by bee3 on Nov 10, 2012 0:36:24 GMT -5
Really well done Lee! My only gripe... the dual vocal harmony part... the lower vocal seemed a tad loud.
Other than that, I really admire the way you put this one together... the piano sounds perfect! The different sections with the stops... just great.
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Post by oswlek on Nov 10, 2012 8:04:15 GMT -5
Nice. A couple quick thoughts while listening on crappy computer speakers. The lines just prior to each chorus have some anti-Pat Patisons, "of" and "that" could both be taken out of the spotlight a little. I like the idea of the backing vocals in the chorus, but I think they are only necessary in the space after the lead. In light of that, how about trimming those lines to, "fingers so small" and "framed upon the wall". The other parts clutter and aren't necessary to my ears, though, again, I'm not wearing headphones. Another idea is to use the abridged version the first time and then change it the second time around. So we first hear his fingers were small, and then learn he wished they weren't so... Or not.  I don't like the raise on "weren't" in the final chorus. I get what you are going for, but it rubs me the wrong way. EDIT: Though I might get more into it if it were the first time you said "weren't".... From about 2:55 - 3:04 you have something conflicting. I can't hear well enough to tell exactly what it is, but there is a lot of toe stepping going on there. Good stuff, Lee. |
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Post by mrkelley on Nov 10, 2012 9:53:02 GMT -5
Good God, you are a fucking magician. Worthy of Harry Nilsson. No kidding! This keeps getting better and better. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 10:15:26 GMT -5
Good God, you are a fucking magician. Worthy of Harry Nilsson. I wish! But thanks dude... that's very cool of you to say. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 10:23:28 GMT -5
I agree - the boy is brilliant. It works really well. My only observation is that the backing vocals are a bit muddled and tentative. I think that they need better integration in the mix. Thank you! The BGs are sort of they is what they is. I mean, I could re-sing them but they really are what I was going for. I'm a little lost going for something else as I like where I got with them. I went for "The Wall of Garfunkels" as a sort of homage to all the S & G songs that played with a little novelty. And... really did want them sort of diffuse to set them apart from the leas vocal. I may regret that byt right now I'm liking them. Hmmmm. So... I'm not disagreeing as much as not really having a clue what else I could do to make them less muddled and tentative. Other than simply turning them up? But I'm not really sure that's right either. Can you try and explain what you mean. I think I might have my blinders on here... Thanks again OGP. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 10:25:37 GMT -5
Really well done Lee! My only gripe... the dual vocal harmony part... the lower vocal seemed a tad loud. Other than that, I really admire the way you put this one together... the piano sounds perfect! The different sections with the stops... just great. Yep, good catch. The baritone vocal was on the list to trim back and I missed before I bounced last night. I'll get it, thanks. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 10:45:42 GMT -5
Nice. A couple quick thoughts while listening on crappy computer speakers. The lines just prior to each chorus have some anti-Pat Patisons, "of" and "that" could both be taken out of the spotlight a little. I like the idea of the backing vocals in the chorus, but I think they are only necessary in the space after the lead. In light of that, how about trimming those lines to, "fingers so small" and "framed upon the wall". The other parts clutter and aren't necessary to my ears, though, again, I'm not wearing headphones. Another idea is to use the abridged version the first time and then change it the second time around. So we first hear his fingers were small, and then learn he wished they weren't so... Or not. I don't like the raise on "weren't" in the final chorus. I get what you are going for, but it rubs me the wrong way. EDIT: Though I might get more into it if it were the first time you said "weren't".... From about 2:55 - 3:04 you have something conflicting. I can't hear well enough to tell exactly what it is, but there is a lot of toe stepping going on there. Good stuff, Lee. Yeah, I could see for those prechorus lines: "of memories...(rest) from-LONG-Ago In the case of "the music THAT I learned FROM you", I'm not sure the cure here would be better than the disease. I'll like look closer at that one as well though. The chorus backups. Yeah, that was and is a balancing act. On the one hand, I always loved those Beatle backups that had lyrics that got stepped on by the lead. So I don't mind that direction of the stepping on, but I don't want it to step on the lead, and it does. "Framed upon the wall" is the obvious fix for the second one by just chopping the preceding "neatly", but "wished my fingers weren't so small"... that's the toughy. OK... I think I found the answer. I'll mute the high and mid parts on "wished" but keep the baritone "wished" in. It's the high parts that step on the lead. I really love to get both phrases working together and not just assume I have to trim out words to make it work. Though I may have to, I love to arrange it so they both work together. Ooo.... that's good. OK... and the rub at 2:55 - 3:04. That is the electric that comes in for the bridge? I took a part that pedals on the high tonic jangle, cut a half bar and pasted/repeated to ring through and let it mess up things a bit for variety. Listen again and see if you think turning it down my fix, or perhaps you like it better now, or it should just go. I'm certainly not married to it but sort of dug the stacked quality it brought to the end and the sense of a little random rubbing (that sounds nasty). I'm not sure... Good stuff, Mr. O. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 10:52:42 GMT -5
There's a plectrum banjo on the left, opposite the upright piano. It comes in and out but it doubles the piano on 1 2 3 4 clearly at "I left New York..." on through that verse. Should it come up for my schticky appeal or is it fine as covert orchestration?
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Post by leeknight on Nov 10, 2012 11:03:02 GMT -5
Nice. A couple quick thoughts while listening on crappy computer speakers. The lines just prior to each chorus have some anti-Pat Patisons, "of" and "that" could both be taken out of the spotlight a little. I like the idea of the backing vocals in the chorus, but I think they are only necessary in the space after the lead. In light of that, how about trimming those lines to, "fingers so small" and "framed upon the wall". The other parts clutter and aren't necessary to my ears, though, again, I'm not wearing headphones. Another idea is to use the abridged version the first time and then change it the second time around. So we first hear his fingers were small, and then learn he wished they weren't so... Or not. I don't like the raise on "weren't" in the final chorus. I get what you are going for, but it rubs me the wrong way. EDIT: Though I might get more into it if it were the first time you said "weren't".... From about 2:55 - 3:04 you have something conflicting. I can't hear well enough to tell exactly what it is, but there is a lot of toe stepping going on there. Good stuff, Lee. Yeah, I could see for those prechorus lines: "of memories...(rest) from-LONG-Ago In the case of "the music THAT I learned FROM you", I'm not sure the cure here would be better than the disease. I'll like look closer at that one as well though. The chorus backups. Yeah, that was and is a balancing act. On the one hand, I always loved those Beatle backups that had lyrics that got stepped on by the lead. So I don't mind that direction of the stepping on, but I don't want it to step on the lead, and it does. "Framed upon the wall" is the obvious fix for the second one by just chopping the preceding "neatly", but "wished my fingers weren't so small"... that's the toughy. OK... I think I found the answer. I'll mute the high and mid parts on "wished" but keep the baritone "wished" in. It's the high parts that step on the lead. I really love to get both phrases working together and not just assume I have to trim out words to make it work. Though I may have to, I love to arrange it so they both work together. Ooo.... that's good. OK... and the rub at 2:55 - 3:04. That is the electric that comes in for the bridge? I took a part that pedals on the high tonic jangle, cut a half bar and pasted/repeated to ring through and let it mess up things a bit for variety. Listen again and see if you think turning it down my fix, or perhaps you like it better now, or it should just go. I'm certainly not married to it but sort of dug the stacked quality it brought to the end and the sense of a little random rubbing (that sounds nasty). I'm not sure... Good stuff, Mr. O. ^^^ Oh... and the cellos come up right there as well. I like those coming up there though, but it might be the accumulative effect of the EG with those... |
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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 10, 2012 15:33:47 GMT -5
Thank you! The BGs are sort of they is what they is. I mean, I could re-sing them but they really are what I was going for. I'm a little lost going for something else as I like where I got with them. I went for "The Wall of Garfunkels" as a sort of homage to all the S & G songs that played with a little novelty. And... really did want them sort of diffuse to set them apart from the leas vocal. I may regret that byt right now I'm liking them. Hmmmm. So... I'm not disagreeing as much as not really having a clue what else I could do to make them less muddled and tentative. Other than simply turning them up? But I'm not really sure that's right either. Can you try and explain what you mean. I think I might have my blinders on here... One thing that helps to bring clarity to BV's is the fact that they are usually different voices from the LV. When the LV and the BV are the same voice, it might help to EQ the BV to help separate it from the LV. (But take this as being from someone who knows next to nothing about recording). I guess you are using an approach something like this, but this is clear, and yours sounds jumbled. Now.....And now my life has changed in oh so many ways ..................................... my life has changedMy independence............My independence seems to vanish in the haze ........................................... vanish in the hazeI'll have a play with it and see if there's another way of getting there. |
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Post by stickboy on Nov 10, 2012 16:50:08 GMT -5
I think this is excellent, i even played it to my friend and they were very impressed
I am in full agreement about the chorus backing vox not quite being right yet..... they just sound a bit cluttered and without reading the lyrics I think I would miss what it is they are saying.
Maybe try some harsh eq or possibly something kinda megaphoney , I dunno or maybe just pan them hardish to only one side?!
As it stands I think id prefer the song without them!
If you're happy with them then cool but for me they do take away some enjoyment from what is a wonderfully enjoyable song (as it stands I look forward to the chorus being over so i can get back to them amazing verses!)
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Post by mrkelley on Nov 10, 2012 17:22:51 GMT -5
I think the b/g vocals are just too low in the mix.
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Post by unclenny on Nov 10, 2012 18:31:11 GMT -5
This is a seriously good song. Seriously.
Could be ...that good.
Regarding the Bvox........consider panning them closer.
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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 10, 2012 21:04:30 GMT -5
I've listen carefully again to the BV expecting to find the problem in the way that they overlap with LV. The whole arrangement is fine the way it is. The problem is one of clarity. I'm just hearing a mush of voices without being able to make out what they are saying. The solution is twofold: As previously noted in an earlier post, there needs to be a different tone on the BV in order to separate it from the LV. It might be resolved by EQ or effect, but I doubt it. I think the remedy lies in having a different person do the BV. At the moment the BV and the LV are tonally merged. I don't think panning will be enough. The source signal needs to change. Once again, it sounds like I know something about recording. I don't - it's all guesswork.......     |
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Post by mrkelley on Nov 10, 2012 21:26:41 GMT -5
I think the remedy lies in having a different person do the BV. At the moment the BV and the LV are tonally merged. I don't think panning will be enough. The source signal needs to change I think that's a very good point. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 11, 2012 10:23:31 GMT -5
I think this is excellent, i even played it to my friend and they were very impressed I am in full agreement about the chorus backing vox not quite being right yet..... they just sound a bit cluttered and without reading the lyrics I think I would miss what it is they are saying. Maybe try some harsh eq or possibly something kinda megaphoney , I dunno or maybe just pan them hardish to only one side?! As it stands I think id prefer the song without them! If you're happy with them then cool but for me they do take away some enjoyment from what is a wonderfully enjoyable song (as it stands I look forward to the chorus being over so i can get back to them amazing verses!) Thank you!!! Yes, I do think there is something that'll make those BGs work as intended. I need to try a few things when I return from my trip. But that is the main issue with the tune as it is. thx for those nice words, Stick... |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 11, 2012 10:39:45 GMT -5
Pan them closer, have someone else sing it, turn them off, turn them up... all great ideas. I've got a couple to try as well. The main issue is, if you try and hear the word "metronome", you'll notice you can't make it out. I missed the ticking of the meh-wwwissshhhhed my fingers weren't so small.... It all sort of falls apart right at the crossover of metronome and wished. When I originally put music to these very cool lyrics of Lee's, I let each line its own time. But that really drew the chorus out and though it worked lyrically, more importantly, it felt a bit like dead air. No amount of re-writing the melodies seems to do what was needed for me. Then, when I began tracking, I did something I normally don't do, I played a temp lead vocal melody on a scratch piano sound. What happened was, the melody then came out as it really needed to, regardless of lyric. I'd screwed up and made the melody too tight for the lyric but... it sure sounds right with the pace and cadence. After finally editing the track to the long open pace I found it wasn't as good. The pacing needs to be tight as it is now. But its wrong so... I revert to the tighter paced "mistake" and see if we can jam the lyrics in as BGs that intertwine. That's how I got here. I agree the lyric works without the "BGs". But I really love that lyric and think it adds a warmness to the character. The yearning to be older with bigger hands then later the yearning to be that young again. I like that. I'm going to make them work. It'll happen... |
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Post by mrkelley on Nov 11, 2012 10:45:27 GMT -5
Yes! ;D
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