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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 5, 2012 21:30:33 GMT -5
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 7:02:38 GMT -5
It is good stuff. I altered a few spots in "Ordinary Life" based on these vids, and it was also the inspiration for the alternate version of Bee's tune I posted.
I've been going through my tunes and finding tons of these little mistakes. I haven't corrected them all, but at least now it is a conscious decision.
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Post by leeknight on Nov 6, 2012 9:42:22 GMT -5
GREAT stuff. I've been reading his books off and on for years. That 1st video is the best explanation of the concept I've seen ever and serves as such as such a great reminder of how we can marry the lyric with the melody to really make our point. He's so pragmatic and direct. Clear. And ultimately makes his points so obvious it is hard to see the subject any other way. You leave his explanation and think... Of course! Really great. I need the reminder...
Thanks!
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Post by leeknight on Nov 6, 2012 11:06:45 GMT -5
Wow... going through all 4 videos... what an insight. That final performance, after watching each of his modifications and reasoning, that last performance is just so much better. It doesn't have the ring of the coffee house wannabe and hits it home more like listening to Norah Jones etc. Just a pleasure to hear that song after the changes.
Holy crap, the mind is reeling here.
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:20:08 GMT -5
It is much better, though I must confess to not liking the changed version of "slip into the sea". I actually prefer the sucky way.  |
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Post by bee3 on Nov 6, 2012 11:25:54 GMT -5
Interesting... Sometimes... it may be better (I would think) to ignore the rules. Thinking back on my song Play It Slow... I love the chorus. I'd be really hesitant to change it from: Well it's hard you know
TOOOOoooo live so fast and learn to play it slowto Well it's hard you know
to LIIIVVVVEEEE so fast and learn to play it slow
To me, it just wouldn't sound as good.  Am I just completely wrong here? Am I being a stubborn ass? (I'm having similar doubts on Certain Company as well). |
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:27:23 GMT -5
Post so we can hear for ourselves.
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Post by bee3 on Nov 6, 2012 11:28:21 GMT -5
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:31:51 GMT -5
I should add that, breaking the rules consciously is part of songwriting. The problem is that most aren't even aware of how much impact screwing with the natural flow of language can have.
I personally broke the rules all over "Haunted".
To stroke your auBURN hair
I feel you in THE air
Both of those are big no-nos, but the flow of the melody is just too important to manually diminish those places. Of course, a lyric rewrite is always possible, but I like how it is now a lot. So I left it alone.
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:34:40 GMT -5
I think stressing "live" could work, but since you hit "you" a few times afterward, "too" wraps it together better. Don't doubt "certain company". Trust me on this one.  |
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Post by bee3 on Nov 6, 2012 11:35:51 GMT -5
I think stressing "live" could work, but since you hit "you" a few times afterward, "too" wraps it together better. Don't doubt "certain company". Trust me on this one. I fell asleep last night watching the Eagles get destroyed. I was intending on working on it... |
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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 6, 2012 11:37:06 GMT -5
I should add that, breaking the rules consciously is part of songwriting. The problem is that most aren't even aware of how much impact screwing with the natural flow of language can have. I personally broke the rules all over "Haunted". To stroke your auBURN hair I feel you in THE air Both of those are big no-nos, but the flow of the melody is just too important to manually diminish those places. Of course, a lyric rewrite is always possible, but I like how it is now a lot. So I left it alone. And Mr P would have you write your lyric so that key words would fall on those musical emphases or Write the melodic emphases to coincide with lyric emphases. or Break the guidelines with effect His is a tough discipline |
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:39:08 GMT -5
I fell asleep last night watching the Eagles get destroyed. I was intending on working on it... I gave up on the NFL after watching the replacement refs hand a game to the Ravens that the Pats should have won handily. Best decision I've made in a long time. |
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:41:20 GMT -5
And Mr P would have you write your lyric so that key words would fall on those musical emphases or Write the melodic emphases to coincide with lyric emphases. or Break the guidelines with effect His is a tough discipline Well, I went through several generations on the lyric, so I tried #1. I played around with #2 for about 20 minutes before realizing it was a fruitless proposition, so I went on to #3. ;D Feel free to check out the "Haunted" thread and let me know if you think I pulled if off.  |
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 11:48:28 GMT -5
Listening to "Play it Slow" for the third time - WTF are you doing here with us amatuers, Bee? You should be writing hit records somewhere.
I agree that "tooooooo" works, but look at "thankfully" just prior to the C2. The stress there falls on "ful" which isn't necessary. It had jumped out at me previously but I wasn't sure why, now I know. Just drop the melody there to the same note as "ly" and it would sound more natural.
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 12:02:13 GMT -5
BTW, OGP, don't forget this Pat P video. The first one is great for pairing lyric and melody, but this one is insightful for the actual lyric writing.
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Post by bee3 on Nov 6, 2012 12:56:15 GMT -5
Listening to "Play it Slow" for the third time - WTF are you doing here with us amatuers, Bee? You should be writing hit records somewhere. I agree that "tooooooo" works, but look at "thankfully" just prior to the C2. The stress there falls on "ful" which isn't necessary. It had jumped out at me previously but I wasn't sure why, now I know. Just drop the melody there to the same note as "ly" and it would sound more natural. That is the ONE line in the song that drives me nuts. I hate the way Brian sang that line... I think I even comped the tail end of that line from multiple takes. I want him to re-sing. |
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Post by leeknight on Nov 6, 2012 13:05:14 GMT -5
I never see any of this stuff as rules. God no. That's no fun at all. As much as I love digging into the minutia, if it all gets too regimented, that's not inspired sounding either.
I see Mr. P's ideas as wonderful tools. The effect they had on that singer/songwriter's tune was very impressive to me. It transformed something that was making me want to plug my ears against another Jewel nausfest. But, upon applying those changes, I could see the very good work that had gone into her tune. He didn't write any of it. He just let me see it.
That moon over lighting the stars analogy is a good at illustrating his point. Not rules but tools. You don't have to use the tools, you get to make it anyway you want. But they're there if you want them and feel they can make the task more enjoyable.
Or not.
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Post by oswlek on Nov 6, 2012 13:22:32 GMT -5
I never see any of this stuff as rules. God no. That's no fun at all. As much as I love digging into the minutia, if it all gets too regimented, that's not inspired sounding either. I see Mr. P's ideas as wonderful tools. The effect they had on that singer/songwriter's tune was very impressive to me. It transformed something that was making me want to plug my ears against another Jewel nausfest. But, upon applying those changes, I could see the very good work that had gone into her tune. He didn't write any of it. He just let me see it. That moon over lighting the stars analogy is a good at illustrating his point. Not rules but tools. You don't have to use the tools, you get to make it anyway you want. But they're there if you want them and feel they can make the task more enjoyable. Or not. I agree, though I've filed this one away under "always do unless you can find a very good reason not to". |
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Post by oldgitplayer on Nov 6, 2012 17:55:33 GMT -5
Feel free to check out the "Haunted" thread and let me know if you think I pulled if off. I'll have a look-see later on when I get my full bandwidth back later today. I've just hit my monthly quota and have been shaped to 128kps.......  |
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