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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 27, 2012 19:05:09 GMT -5
UPDATE 10/28/2012
2ND NEW VERSION:The Road Turns (c)2012 Rick Dieffenbach www.rickdieffenbach.com/songplay.aspx?ID=87============================ CHORUS (and) The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends... the life you knew... has come... to an end the life you once had ... ... ... never again =========================== Silence speaks... of things once spoken Imagined whispers... that I hear I never thought... I’d be... alone again On my own when the sunrise reappears [CHORUS] Treasure moments... as they happen Tell those you love.... how you feel... You never know... when it will end... before your eyes You'll never know you'll have... to say goodbye You'll never know if you'll have a chance to say goodbye
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Post by oldgitplayer on Oct 27, 2012 19:53:39 GMT -5
Very poignant song Rick - and with a lovely melody.
Here are my thoughts where it might be improved:
I think 3 'sometimes' in the chorus get a bit much. Maybe keep them in lines 3&4, but change line 1.
In lines 3&4, you sing 'sometimes' in a hurried manner. Separate it into 2 words with the emphasis on 'times'.
Also change the phrasing in line 4. (see changed placement of comma).
Also the pair of double syllables (without notice) at the end of Line 1 goes against the rhythm. This would be better as 3 syllables.
In V2, line 1 will sing better as 'life' rather than 'lifetime'. It needs to match the prosody of line 2.
In V2 linger over the word 'before'
Some suggestions are included:
CHORUS:
The road can turn without, fore-warn-ing
We think it’s straight, and then it bends...
some times I feel, like the night won’t end
some times I feel like I’ll never, find a friend
===========================
Silence speaks of some things that were spoken
Whispers fly and lay upon my ears
I never thought I'd find myself alone again
I never thought I’d need to face my fears
CHORUS
Treasure all the moments in your liiiife
Tell those who you love how you feeeel
You never know when it will end befoooore your eyes
or even if there's time to say goodbye
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Post by mrkelley on Oct 27, 2012 20:32:39 GMT -5
You've made a good start, but I think you're trying to do a bit too much lyrically. For instance the 3rd line of the chorus is enough. If I were you I wouldn't try to add on to it. I'd just repeat it, like this:
And the road turns sometimes, without notice
You think it’s straight, and then it bends...
sometimes you feel like the night won’t end
sometimes I feel ... ... ... the night won't end.
Also, the verses don't sound as organic, melodically, as the chorus. They sound a bit forced.
I know this song stems from your recent loss, but I think it needs a little distance, lyrically, to make it even more poignant, if you get what I'm saying. Just a tiny bit.
Silence speaks of some things that were spoken
Soft words fly and whisper in my ears
I never thought I'd find myself alone again
Who'll be there when the daylight disappears?
CHORUS
Treasure all the moments as they happen
Tell those who you love how you feel
You never know when it might end before your eyes
before you've said ... ... your sweet goodbyes.
before you've said ... ... your last goodbyes...
Just some thoughts.
Very nice vocal again, Rickidoo!
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Post by oswlek on Oct 27, 2012 22:51:19 GMT -5
I'll echo what the lyric gurus above me said. The only thing I can add is my desire to see the "like" dropped from lines 3/4 in the chorus.
It is a lovely song, Rick. The chorus in particular is quite beautiful.
Edit: One more thing, I like Lee's idea of repeating the 3rd line for the 4th in the chorus, but I think you need to lay the hammer down with that "never find my friend" for the last line of the song. So, repeat the first two times and then run with the "friend" line at the end, just without the "like".
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Post by bee3 on Oct 27, 2012 23:29:31 GMT -5
I really like it... very pretty piece. My suggestion:
something I feel, like I’ll never find a friend feels like one too many syllables.
Perhaps - sometimes I feel I'll never find a friend or sometimes I feel, like I won't find a friend
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Post by monkeyuncle on Oct 28, 2012 5:45:21 GMT -5
LCK - oops, mrkelley - hit most of the things that occurred to me as I listened. I especially like his suggested edits to the verses. Also, I think he's on target with the comment about the verse melody. The modulation going from the opening chorus to the verse is a pleasant surprise, but overall the verse melody and harmony sound a little too happy (i.e., major-ish) for the subject matter. Unfortunately, I don't have the theory knowledge to offer any specific suggestions. It is a very poignant and touching song, obviously derived from your recent experiences. When a song is that personal, you pretty much have to go with your gut, so feel free to ignore any of this input.  |
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Post by graceslick on Oct 28, 2012 6:02:36 GMT -5
Treasure all the moments in your life time Tell those who you love how you feel You never know when it will end before your eyes or even if there's time to say goodbye These lines made me feel like I couldn't breathe for a few seconds...that's how much they touched me. Love this song. |
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 28, 2012 6:19:36 GMT -5
Thank you ALL for your most excellent suggestions. I redid the demo with new lyrics. I started with all the suggested changes, then worked and reworked it. It's also shorter. In the end it was hammered into an almost new song. Hopefully for the better! Also, the verse melody was adjusted, hopefully it comes off as more sincere and matching the chorus. Do you think? This is just a single mike run through demo. Did I say thank you? Thank you! Comments on this version? By the way, as was mentioned I recently had a loss. And I do have some bad days. But, writing a song like this is very soothing for me. Songwriting, for me, is a way to focus my thoughts and contemplate. Some songs, for me, are the way I pray. I know that must sound hooky. But it's true. Version 2: The Road Turns www.rickdieffenbach.com/songplay.aspx?ID=87============================ CHORUS: #1 The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends... the life you knew, is at an end << no “that” as sung in the demo the life you once had, with your lover and friend =========================== Silence speaks of some things that were spoken Soft words fly and whisper in my ears I never thought I'd find myself alone again no one there when the sunrise reappears ============================ CHORUS #2 (and) The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends... the life that you knew, is at an end the life you once had, with your lover and best friend =========================== Treasure all the moments as they happen Tell those who you love how you feeel... ill <<< more ill... wanted You never know when it will end befooore.. your eyes <<< guitar screwup here and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye |
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Post by oswlek on Oct 28, 2012 6:58:44 GMT -5
Gorgeous, Rick. Great song and terrific performance.
I have two mild nit picks.
1) I really liked the earlier high note on "ken" of "spoken". I hope it returns in the final.
2) "best friend" is too jammed together. I don't think you should cut anything, just don't try to get it all in in the same time. Instead, do a very brief pause and sing "best" on the chord change at 1:50, with "friend" falling on 1:51. You'll have to change the melody slightly to fit the new chord landing, but it works very well when I sing along.
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Post by leeknight on Oct 28, 2012 10:22:55 GMT -5
Rick, I don't know how you do it. It's beautiful. You manage to tap into your heart and experience in such a bold and true way. It's very cool. I do hope you're doing alright through this.
I love the chorus. Really special. Cool chords that just make the listener's heart ache right along with you. That's awesome. And while I love the content of the verses, I can't help feeling that a major contrast is needed here. In the syllable count for starters.
Silence speaks... of things spoken
Soft words fly n' whisper... in my ears
I find myself alone again
I never would've believed
No one there when sunrise... reappears
That's not better per se, as a matter of fact it's worse, and the changes are small, but the idea I'm trying to say is I think if needs to be broken up. To not be so symmetrical. To have a rhythm logic, but be jagged, like the story.
I'd go though and trim extraneous filler words. Just as you nixed the word in V1, I'd go through and do the same wherever needed. Like below...
the life you once had, with your lover and best friend
The life you had with your lover and friend
It's beautiful.
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Post by mrkelley on Oct 28, 2012 11:14:47 GMT -5
Rick, I don't know how you do it. It's beautiful. You manage to tap into your heart and experience in such a bold and true way. It's very cool. I do hope you're doing alright through this. I love the chorus. Really special. Cool chords that just make the listener's heart ache right along with you. That's awesome. And while I love the content of the verses, I can't help feeling that a major contrast is needed here. In the syllable count for starters.
Silence speaks... of things spoken
Soft words fly n' whisper... in my ears
I find myself alone again
I never would've believed
No one there when sunrise... reappearsThat's not better per se, as a matter of fact it's worse, and the changes are small, but the idea I'm trying to say is I think if needs to be broken up. To not be so symmetrical. To have a rhythm logic, but be jagged, like the story. I'd go though and trim extraneous filler words. Just as you nixed the word in V1, I'd go through and do the same wherever needed. Like below... the life you once had, with your lover and best friend The life you had with your lover and friend It's beautiful. I agree. That's part of what I was trying to get at in my first response. The rewrite you've done on the verses is really good. But I also want to iterate that I think you're still telling us too much in the chorus. I don't think you should mystify the listener, but neither do I think you should spell everything out so clearly and cleanly. The chorus is soooo good, up to a point. It invites us in to your experience, but I think you take it too far with that last line. I really think you should try it with a modified repeat of the 3rd line ... ... ... with a pause ... ... ... to let the tension build. The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends the life you knew is at an end the life you had ... ... ... comes to an end. |
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 28, 2012 13:11:02 GMT -5
Thank you all! I really like this next demo, which incorporates a simplified chorus (lck) and a contrasting verse melody/style wise (Lee). Thank you all. You've given me an incredible gift. Thank you. All comments welcome. The Road Turns (c)2012 Rick Dieffenbach www.rickdieffenbach.com/songplay.aspx?ID=87============================ CHORUS The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends... the life you knew the life you had ... ... ... gone forever and ever =========================== Silence speaks... of things once spoken Imagined whispers... in my ears I never thought... I’d be alone again On my own when the sunrise reappears [CHORUS] Treasure moments... as they happen Tell those you love.... how you feel... You never know when it will end before your eyes and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye << more work needed on the last line melody |
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Post by oswlek on Oct 28, 2012 13:26:34 GMT -5
Rick, I haven't listened yet, but Lee's two chorus ending lines read much stronger. I would seriously consider replacing what you have now with them, seeing as your lines seem to convey the same message.
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 28, 2012 13:30:39 GMT -5
Oswek - I'm not clear - here is lee's two lines:
the life you knew is at an end
the life you had ... ... ... comes to an end.
And mine, ever so lightly different:
the life you knew
the life you had ... ... ... gone forever and ever
?
Rick
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Post by mrkelley on Oct 28, 2012 14:40:54 GMT -5
Oswek - I'm not clear - here is lee's two lines: the life you knew is at an end the life you had ... ... ... comes to an end. And mine, ever so lightly different: the life you knew the life you had ... ... ... gone forever and ever ? Rick I think the repetition of the idea of life coming to an end creates a feeling that it's really gone and there's nothing else to say. Meanwhile, I think "Gone forever and ever" is too much. "The life you had ... forever gone..." would be better, but then you'd miss out on the rhyme (or semi-rhyme) tying things together. If I had to explain why there's a difference I think that sometimes repetition feels right, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's the perfect icing on the cake and sometimes it's just another layer of icing. A few ideas for the verses: Silence speaks... with words unspoken
Imagined whispers... reach my ears
I never thought... I’d be forsaken
alone here as the warm sun reappears[CHORUS] Treasure all your days... with both eyes open
Don't hide your love.... it isn't wise...
You never know when it might happen
or if you’ll have a chance... for last goodbyes
you might not have a chance ... for your goodbyes...It's an incredible thing you've done with this song. It's sweet, it's sad as hell, it's beautiful, and it's a complicated story simply told. But simplicity can be the most difficult thing to pull off. |
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Post by oswlek on Oct 28, 2012 16:16:00 GMT -5
Oswek - I'm not clear - here is lee's two lines: the life you knew is at an end the life you had ... ... ... comes to an end. And mine, ever so lightly different: the life you knew the life you had ... ... ... gone forever and ever ? Rick For me, those lines aren't slightly different, the separation is significant. The mood of the song does more than enough to convey the "turn" means everything before is gone. Saying it comes to an end is subtly powerful. Saying it is gone "forever and ever" is unnecessary and actually diminishes the impact of the line. Said different, your line is trying too hard, and it impedes the impact is should have. |
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 28, 2012 16:34:13 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. I think I learned quite a bit. I finally settled on:
the life you knew has come to an end
the life you had ... ... ... never again
I tried and tried and tried... to use the comes to an end twice. It must be in my particular phrasing, I could not get it to sound right. But I am happy with this one.
Onto the next song.. this one a happy one about grandkids...
Thanks all! I *do much* appreciate your patience. Thanks especially LK.
Rick
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Post by oswlek on Oct 28, 2012 17:05:56 GMT -5
That is a wonderful compromise, Rick. Really hits home.
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Post by unclenny on Oct 28, 2012 18:16:21 GMT -5
I have no nits to pick, Rick...I'm just listening.
This is the best I have heard from you....poignant and personal. As a listener, I was brought to all of those places that I have been to that are similar to where you are now as a writer of this song.
You just sound so...real and honest in this performance.
Some songs, for me, are the way I pray.
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Post by rsadasiv on Oct 29, 2012 14:57:46 GMT -5
Thank you all! I really like this next demo, which incorporates a simplified chorus (lck) and a contrasting verse melody/style wise (Lee). Thank you all. You've given me an incredible gift. Thank you. All comments welcome. The Road Turns (c)2012 Rick Dieffenbach www.rickdieffenbach.com/songplay.aspx?ID=87============================ CHORUS The road turns ahead, without warning You think it’s straight, and then it bends... the life you knew the life you had ... ... ... gone forever and ever =========================== Silence speaks... of things once spoken Imagined whispers... in my ears I never thought... I’d be alone again On my own when the sunrise reappears [CHORUS] Treasure moments... as they happen Tell those you love.... how you feel... You never know when it will end before your eyes and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye and if you’ll have a chance... to say goodbye << more work needed on the last line melody This is great. It's a little on the jazzy/arty side of the spectrum, but I like that. |
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Post by oldgitplayer on Oct 29, 2012 19:37:57 GMT -5
Rick - every aspect of your crafting of melody and lyrics, and your singing ability has improved greatly over the past 12 months, but there is still one aspect dragging its feet, and it is a shadow cast over your good work.
It is prosody. So I'm going to be a pain on this one.
Firstly, in this song, the written lyric says, 'the life you had' which falls perfectly with the musical emphasis. But when you sing it, you add a word 'the life you once had' and then the word rhythm is screwed.
Now I mention this, because you do it over and over when you write lyrics.
The other point is where you place the emphasis on words. If it is a 2 syllable word, you often place the emphasis on the wrong half. In this demo there are a few examples, but I'll just mention one - with warning you place the emphasis on 'ing' instead of on 'warn'
Here is an excellent lesson by Pat Pattison that might help
I know this is going to help take your writing to the next level.
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 30, 2012 5:48:41 GMT -5
Thanks Git! I appreciate that you have taken the time, and been so direct, to help make me a better songwriter.
And you're right. It's almost as if prosody isn't on my radar. I mean the word is, but the meaning and intrinsic "feel" of what it means when writing lyrics isn't.
You may not remember, but it was almost a year ago you talked about my singing, and gave me some tips, which I used. It is a bit better than it was a year ago. I hope to make 2013 the year of prosody for me. Sounds silly I know. But if it will take it to the next level, then that's what i want to do.
I am watching the video, and I see he also did another video where he talks on prosidy quite a bit:
Thank you for taking the time to nudge me!!!!!
Rick
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Post by bee3 on Oct 30, 2012 8:28:24 GMT -5
Prosody aside... this is a beautiful song. And is featured in the news feed.  |
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Post by rickdieffenbach on Oct 30, 2012 9:10:35 GMT -5
Very cool. Thank you bee3!
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Post by oswlek on Oct 30, 2012 17:29:04 GMT -5
Well deserved, Rick. Can't wait to hear the final version of this one.
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Post by oldgitplayer on Oct 30, 2012 19:44:41 GMT -5
Rick - Try this series of 4 parts. It is a practical interaction with a songwriter rather than theory only.
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Post by rsadasiv on Oct 31, 2012 9:23:39 GMT -5
Rick - every aspect of your crafting of melody and lyrics, and your singing ability has improved greatly over the past 12 months +1 |
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Post by oswlek on Oct 31, 2012 11:14:38 GMT -5
I've spent a good part of the last day with Mr. Pattison's material and it is eye opening.
The funny thing is, a lot of it I already knew, but still underappreciated its importance, particularly the most recent vid where he works with a live songwriter.
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Post by unclenny on Oct 31, 2012 16:00:38 GMT -5
Love this tune, Rick,
Your production chops are getting very good. That guitar really works.
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